Latest from the changing room...
June 2002

The fight to save Las Palmas and Oviedo is on. Both teams are facing extinction having accumulated huge debts, and they only have until the end of July to bring themselves up to date with payments to their players to avoid automatic relegation down to the second division B.

Las Palmas at least appear to have avoided this though, with a relief package being put together by the new board in collaboration with the local authorities in Gran Canaria. They have cobbled together €29 million, underwritten by the transfer rights of under 21 internationals Jorge and Angel, more than enough to settle the clubs €20 million debts. Agreement has also been reached with the the tax authorities to reschedule a €12 million debt over the next five years.

Oviedo too have elected a new board, and they are also hoping that their local council can lend them a helping hand to solve their financial difficulties. Supporters have been organizing street protests, and the club have put the whole squad up for sale at bargain prices. (23.06.02)

Oviedo think they have find a way to settle at least part of the €40 million outstanding debt. And his name is......Stan Collymore. The controversial ex-England striker was heralded as the new saviour halfway through the 2000/1 season when he signed for the club who were struggling down near the bottom of the first division. However Stan the Man, who had been having some well publicised personal problems at the time, walked out on them unannounced and retired from football after only playing a handful of games.

Oviedo went down on the last day of the season, and the club knew who was to blame......Stan Collymore of course. Not the other players, nor the management, nor the bad luck with injuries, nor the rash spending on bad signings, but.....Stan Collymore. With the club in grave financial difficulties they decided to take him to the Spanish courts, suing him for eleven million Euros for breach of contract.

This week both sides put their cases to the local labour tribunal and they are expected to give their findings in the near future. Stan appeared with his lawyers, but only issued a brief no comment. We await the outcome with baited breath. (05.06.02)

His name is Camachín and if he was a cat he would only have eight lives left. Spain's new World Cup mascot was found by Antenna 3 television reporters in a cage in a South Korea market on his way to the cooking pot.

The reporters bought him off the stall owners and brought him back to the training camp, where much to the manager's dismay he was named after him (there is a canny resemblance).

Camachín now spends his day in the press hotel lying in the shade and making friends with everyone. Television presenter Olga Viza has been charged with making plans to bring him back to Spain and find him an owner, and Luque has already offered to give him a home if nobody else does. Who says Spaniards are not animal lovers? (30.05.02)

May 2002

Levante and Gimnastic Tarragona may be able to achieve in the back offices what they couldn't do on the playing field: stay in the second division A. One or both of them could win a reprieve if other clubs in the division fail to settle outstanding debts with their players by the end of July, the deadline set by the authorities every season.

Two teams are in big trouble at the moment, Oviedo and newly relegated Las Palmas, and either could see themselves down in the second division B if they fail to meet their obligations. Oviedo reportedly have debts of around €40 million, and emergency plans are already underfoot to dissolve the club and reform under the name of Astur in the third division if no other alternative comes up in the meantime. Local authorities and businessmen are desperately trying to find a way to save them, but it looks as if the Asturians could disappear in the year they are celebrating their 75th anniversary.

Las Palmas' hopes of salvation took a blow when they finished in the bottom three of the first division and got relegated to 2A. New funds had been promised by local businesses if the club stayed up, but even so president Luis Sicilia thinks he and his board can find the €21 million they need through bank loans, rescheduling debt and selling players and land. He is on a tight deadline though, and players are already threatening to denounce them to the authorities for non-payment.

Even if one or the other do disappear though, Levante and Nàstic will not have it easy. Under regulations set up last season, they will in theory at least have to pay off the back debts of the relegated team if they want to replace them. Neither are that rich. (27.05.02)

April 2002

The shock waves hitting Europe in recent days over television rights are also reaching Spain. Audiovisual Sport (AVS), the company who currently hold the rights for Spanish football, admitted that they will have run up losses of around 360 million Euros by June 2003 when the current five year contract expires, and the Spanish digital and internet TV channels Vía Digital, Canal Satelite and Quiero TV (who buy the lion's share of the rights) are also losing hand over fist. AVS shareholders, who include Telefonica, Sogecable and TV3, are proposing to the LFP that the clubs share the risk and participate in a joint venture to commercialise the rights from next year.

The 20 first division clubs have received 240 million Euros a year between them for those five years, but the offer on the table for the future is only around half that amount.

Meanwhile Vía Digital are in danger of losing more money after the Spanish national television network TVE refused to pay their asking price for the World Cup games. The company paid top rates to acquire the rights from Kirsch before they went bankrupt, and are obliged to sell the matches 'of national interest' on to an open station. It now looks as if Vía Digital shareholder Antenna 3 will be broadcasting the games involving Spain and other key matches this summer. (29.04.02)

A new bribery scandal is brewing in the second division. After the match between Levante and Leganés which the Madrid side won 1-2, their president Jesús Polo told the Spanish football federation that one of his players David Clotet had been approached by someone claiming to represent Levante, offering him a two year contract with his club or a cash payment for helping Leganés lose the game.

The issue was discussed in the weekly disciplinary hearing and an investigation is underway which could lead eventually to criminal proceedings if there is any truth in the accusations, which the Valencia based side strongly deny.

Levante are struggling down in the relegation spots, and need to win most of their remaining matches if they are to stay up. They have however had a recent return to form, with away wins at Jaén and Ferrol in a four match unbeaten run, and questions are now being raised as to whether that was due to sporting prowess or other reasons. The issue needs to be settled quickly to avoid bad feelings all round. (16.04.02)

PS. The federation have closed their investigation into this case for lack of evidence. Levante strongly objected to the accusations, and Leganés accepted that there was no proof that the person who contacted Clotet had anything to do with the club. (24.04.02)

Financial problems are never far away for the smaller clubs in Spanish football. Several second division B sides are in trouble, including Granada, whose players are owed five months wages and who trained in the street outside the club offices as a protest, Compostela, who have just been given their January pay, and Sabadell, whose board of directors have just stumped up the February payroll out of their own pockets.

The problems are not confined to the lower divisions though. The Las Palmas players gave a press conference this week to try and force their management to at least cough up the two months back pay they are due, and to explain that they did not expect to collect their signing on fees (a large part of their income in Spain) in the foreseeable future. Club management admit that they are in financial difficulties, and need a large injection of funds before the end of the season if they are to survive. Meanwhile the players keep turning up and putting in sterling performances every week. There again, their future probably depends on them staying in the first division for another year. (06.04.02)

Atlético Madrid's controversial president Jesús Gil is back in trouble. As mayor of Marbella he was accused of promoting his own interests by setting up a publicity deal with Atlético to carry the resort town's name on their shirts. According to the court, this was done without consulting anyone else, and the amount of around 2.7 million Euros was apparently paid over from public funds.

Gil defends his actions as strictly commercial and appealed the decision of the local courts. However the Supreme Tribunal has now ratified the sentence of 28 years ban on holding office and a six month jail sentence, and although a final appeal is being processed, it looks as if he will at least have to give up the mayorship in the near future. (05.04.02)

March 2002 The three Sevilla players, Olivera, Otero and Zalayeta, who were accused of serious bodily harm on three local youths have been let off with a stiff fine by the local courts. The case dates back to December 1999, when the three Uruguayan internationals were at a local discotheque with their wives and were insulted by the youths (see archive story of 4th October 2001). The players are in any case appealing against the court decision. (21.03.02).
February 2002

Despite their problems off the field of play, Xerez are having an exceptional season under Bernd Schuster in their first campaign back in the second division A, and could make the jump straight up to the first division for the first time in their history.

They wouldn't be the first club to do rise up the two divisions in consecutive seasons though. So far five teams have achieved the feat since the second division was reorganised in 1977, starting with AD Almería who have since disappeared and were replaced by Poli Almería, finally becoming UD Almería this season.

Celta dropped down two divisions at the end of the seventies and immediately bounced back under Pavic, and Benito Floro's Albacete came up and spent five seasons in the top flight in the early nineties. Curiously 'the clockwork cheese' went back down to the second division A after losing in the play-offs to Salamanca, who had just made the double jump with Urzaiz at centre forward. Salamanca went straight back down, but came back the year after and spent another two seasons at the top level.

The last club to achieve the feat were the reformed Málaga CF, formerly CD Málaga, who were champions of their second B group in 1998 and of the second division A in 1999 under current manager Joaquín Peiró, with Catanha, Rufete and De los Santos amongst their ranks. (16.02.02)

Sevilla's exciting young striker José Antonio Reyes is lucky not to be maimed for life after a freak accident in training. He was playing in a practice match when a shot from a colleague went astray and hit a spiked metal post which span up in the air and stuck in the players forehead. Reyes himself pulled it out and he was rushed off to hospital for X-rays, which revealed a small fracture to the front of the skull. Luckily it was not as serious as appeared, and within 24 hours he was out of hospital and back at home, with instructions not to return to work for at least ten days or so. Apparently he was a very lucky man though, as a centimetre to one side and he could have lost an eye. He will probably think twice from now on before making those instinctive headers in the box. (05.02.02)
January 2002

Xerez's success on the pitch is in stark contrast to their fortunes off it. The fight between controversial club president Luis Oliver and the mayor of Jerez de la Frontera Pedro Pacheco has been constant, with the team being forced to play 50 Kilometres away from Jerez up until last week when they moved back to the Juventud stadium in their home town after reaching a peace agreement with the local council.

Now though they have another more serious problem, with the squad ready to mutiny after failing to receive money due to them by the club, including their December payroll, signing fees and bonus money from last season. Manager Bernd Schuster has been asked a number of times by Oliver to make excuses for him, but after promises were not met Schuster is not prepared to keep on doing so, and may even resign if the problem is not solved soon.

Meanwhile the club has been told by the Spanish Football Federation that they have to put up over seven million Euros in share capital to convert to a sporting limited company (SAD), which Oliver is not prepared to do. Failure to do so though could mean the club are relegated to the lower divisions just as they are close to their dream of reaching the first division for the first time ever. Keep glued to your screens for the next episode.... (26.01.02)

Valencia keeper Santiago Cañizares had a hard time in his team's recent match at Betis. The Spanish international goalkeeper apparently comes on to the pitch with specially embroidered towels which match the colour of his shirt, together with a plastic bottle full of drinking water.

At the start of the second half though he noticed that his favourite red towel had disappeared, stolen either by someone who sneaked out of the crowd, or maybe by one of the ball boys. Furthermore his plastic bottle seemed warmer than normal, and on further inspection in turned out that someone had emptied out the water and filled it with urine (luckily he was advised of this by one of the ball boys before he took a swig).

Cañi offered a five thousand pesetas reward to anyone who returned his towel, but it didn't turn up on the night and the next day there was apparently a long line of youngsters outside the club in Sevilla clutching a diverse collection of red towels and claiming the reward. Funny life sometimes, being a footballer. (15.01.02)

December 2001

The success of the Full Monty and the famous calendar of the Matildas has not gone unnoticed in Spain. The players of Arenal, a third division side from the island of Mallorca, decided they wanted to help one of their team mates Paco Ruiz, who was banned for 14 games and forced to either spend seven weekends in jail or pay a 7,500 Euros fine for breaking the jaw of an opponent (they say accidentally) in one of their matches.

After racking their brains to find a way to raise the cash, they finally decided that taking their clothes off and showing their naked bodies was a sure money-spinner. So they published a calendar with photos of the squad in the all-together, and followed it up with a strip-tease at a local discotheque.

So far they have sold over a thousand copies of the calendar, and are well on the way to paying off the fine. The players' wives have been very understanding it seems. (31.12.01)

Watch out if you are selling players to football clubs in Spain. According to reports appearing in the local press, Coventry City asked for a bank guarantee from Osasuna for the term payments due for the transfer of Australian international John Aloisi. Conditions were agreed to make four payments of around 80 million Pesetas each over a period of time, and the Pamplona based club apparently sent them bills of exchange avalised by the local savings bank Caja Navarra.

The first payment was made without any hitch, but the surprise came when Coventry subsequently asked the savings bank for confirmation that the remaining bills were genuine, presumably looking to discount them to raise finance. Imagine their surprise when the bank replied that they knew nothing about this, and that the only operation under guarantee had been for the purchase of Armentano some time before.

It now appears that somebody at the club forged the signature of the bank president, and that no guarantee was ever given by the bank nor approved by the club's board. Although it is not clear who did this, Osasuna's general manager has offered to resign and club president Javier Miranda is trying to play it down, saying that whoever it was they had the club at heart and did not gain personally from the deal.

The first division side are one of the few financially sound clubs who were not required to set up a limited company when the law changed, and presumably will have no problem meeting payments. However the fact remains that Coventry let the player go thinking they had a solid guarantee, and now it seems that is not the case. So far they have not been in touch with the Spanish club, but they would be well within their rights to ask for the return of the player if no satisfactory solution can be found. Somebody has some explaining to do. (27.12.01)

Those of us who have lived in Spain for a long time are quite used to it. The governing body makes a decision in summer to open the transfer market on 15th December, but nobody thinks of checking a calendar to see what day it falls on. And so everybody lines up their new players for the big day, which happens to be a Saturday, expecting their star signings to be turning out for the weekend's matches.

Rayo Vallecano try out new tactics including Ferrón in their plans, Mallorca think about including Roa and Losada in their squad and Málaga....well, Pieró asks who the hell is this Manu who the management have signed from Real Madrid B behind his back?

And then after several tries they finally get through to the LFP's beleaguered switchboard to ask what time they open on Saturday morning for registration. "Saturday?", comes the reply, "we don't work on Saturdays. This is Spain remember". So frustration all round, and the new signings have to wait a few more days before they can make their debuts. You think they would have learnt by now. (16.12.01)

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Second division B side Hospitalet had qualified for the last 16 of the Spanish cup, and had drawn one of the best teams in Spain, Deportivo La Coruña, with the first leg to take place at their stadium on the outskirts of Barcelona.

It was a sure money spinner, with the game brought forward a day to be televised around the country. But then Deportivo announced that they were debating whether to ask for a change of venue as they did not want to play on an artificial pitch (where Real Sociedad had already been beaten in an earlier round). Federation rules don't allow matches to take place on this type of surface in the cup unless both teams agree, and Osasuna for example have already exercised their right to change this season.

Hospitalet controversial president Miguel García went berserk though, and harangued Depor president Lendoiro and manager Irureta without waiting for a decision. That provoked the Gallician side to make up their minds, and after Hospitalet rather insultingly offered a potato field of a rugby pitch as an alternative, the Federation fixed the game to be played at Barcelona's mini-stadium, just a stone's throw away.

Depor turned up but Hospitalet didn't, and the tie was awarded to the first division club. Hospitalet now face a fine of up to two million Pesetas and will be banned from the competition next season. Yes, the rule is probably silly and should be changed, but the Catalan side's president's rather Quixotic stand has cost his team an estimated 30 million Pesetas in gate money alone and the chance of glory for the first time in their history. Fans are standing by him, but was the decision really in the best interests of the club? (11.12.01)

November 2001

Most young boys (with the exception of the odd train driver fanatic) want to be either a world famous footballer or a rock star. Atlético Madrid's extrovert goalkeeper Mono Burgos has done both, combining his international appearances in goal for Argentina with a singing career in front of his hard rock band "Simpatia".

With his superstar looks, long hair, tattoos and all, he has already released two CDs which have had varying success, "Jaque al Rey" and "Fasolera de Tribunas", and is now on the verge of putting out his third, which has yet to be given a title. Is his music good? Opinions vary, but we suggest he doesn't give up his day job for now. (21.11.01)

Tenerife's Italian born striker Pier Luigi Cherubini (Pier to his friends) can rest easy at last after he and his wife won a court case against Betis president Manuel Ruiz de Lopera.

Pier moved from Sporting Gijon to Betis a few seasons ago while still under contract with the Asturian club without settling the buy-out clause of around 300 million Pesetas which was stipulated in his contract. At the time Lopera apparently told him verbally in front of witnesses that if there was anything to pay then Betis would pay it, although nothing was ever signed in writing. Hard-up Sporting took Pier to court and won a settlement of 150 million Pesetas, but Lopera said he had never promised anything to the player, who by then had moved on to Tenerife.

Unable to settle the debt himself, Pier had to agree to pay Sporting back as and when he could, and his new club even organised a testimonial match for him to help raise the money. Now though the Spanish court has ruled that Lopera's verbal promise constitutes a binding obligation, and Betis will have to pay up. Don Manuel, never one to let money slip out of his hands easily, has said that he will appeal the decision. (15.11.01)

Financial problems are always just around the corner for the smaller teams in Spain, and stories are coming to light every day of players failing to collect their wages and embargoes on club funds.

Oviedo are being taken to court by four players, Iván Ania, Joyce Moreno and Rabarivony who are owed money after leaving the club and Oli who is due back wages. Xerez's players threatened not to turn up for training if they were not paid their September payroll, and Elche's new president resigned as he was not prepared to take over responsibility for debts which were run up by the previous management. Las Palmas have also had their gate money impounded by the local tax authorities for overdue debts. (09.11.01)

Trick or treat? Spain has caught on to the English speaking countries tradition of Halloween, the night when ghosties are about and little boys and girls should be tucked up in their beds by midnight.

The little boys at Betis decided that they would defy the ghouls and have a bit of a party round at the house of one of the squad who shall be nameless (Benjamín actually). After all it was Wednesday night, the next day was a public holiday (all saints day) and the next match wasn't until a few days later. But rather than the big pumpkin turning up in the wee hours of the morning, something rather more unpleasant appeared on the front doorstep.

It was club president Don Manuel Ruiz de Lopera, dragging behind him a rather reluctant Juande Ramos, who had been woken from his sleep to witness the event. Don Manuel howled and moaned, and sent the bad boys home ruing the day they were born. After all, club regulations stated that they should not be out and about at that time of night, especially as some of them had not even reached the tender age of 30.

The story was blown up out of all proportions in the papers and the fans tore them apart at the weekend, with the inevitable result that they lost a match they should have won easily against struggling Zaragoza. As a famous management consultant once said to a famous managing director: "Are you trying to solve the problem or are you part of the problem?". (05.11.01)

October 2001

Anyone who has been to Spain on holiday will know what the Spanish Football Federation are going through. They have been looking for a venue for the upcoming friendly international with Mexico, and thought it would be a nice idea to play in Huelva, where the second division's oldest side Recreativo are inaugurating a new stadium.

Imagine their surprise therefore when they turned up to inspect the facilities and found a half finished building site. Don't worry said the local authorities, it will be finished in time. However Recreativo hadn't scheduled to play their first league match there until the beginning of January when, according to the local council, the "surrounding amenities will be complete".

Although they had pencilled in Atlético's Calderón stadium as an alternative venue, eventually the federation were convinced and will go ahead as planned, provided that a trial game between Recreativo and Newcastle United goes off without a hitch. We advise anyone wanting to attend the game to turn up with wellington boots and lots of plastic sheeting. We've stayed at hotels on the Costa del Sol before! (30.10.01)

The various legal cases resulting from the false passport scandal are quietly taking their course, with most situations becoming clearer as time wears on.

Four players are still waiting for the Argentine/Italian authorities to confirm their dual nationality, and in the meantime are being treated as non-EU players. Valencia's Ayala and Mallorca's Leo Franco have been fitted in to their squads as such, but Espanyol's Navas is having to wait on the sidelines as their four non-EU spots are already full. The relevant papers should be through any time now (so will Christmas).

Tenerife's Bruno Marioni is having more problems relating to the time he was registered as an EU national with Villarreal, even though now he occupies a non-EU spot at the Canary Island club. The prosecution is asking for a two year ban, and it could get nasty. Marioni replaced Barata, who was initially suspended for a year but had the ban lifted pending a court decision, and is now playing in Portugal.

Espanyol defender Toledo is in the same situation, but having gone back to Paraguay he will not be returning to Europe for the time being. Alavés keeper Herrera served out a short ban relating to a minor irregularity in his papers, and the young Las Palmas defenders Alvaro and Baiano are playing in their home country Brazil pending resolution of their cases. (22.10.01)

You have to watch out for the tax man in Spain. Burgos found that out to their cost when they were advised by the marketing company Audiovisual Sport that they could not pay them the 150 million Pesetas they owed them as the Agencia Tributaria had placed an embargo on the amounts due.

This came as a total surprise as to the best of their knowledge they were up to date with payments to the taxation authorities. It later transpired though that they had been confused with Real Burgos, the club who used to play in the first division and who had gone bankrupt in 1994. Burgos CF did spring from their ashes, but is a completely separate legal entity. Once this had been explained to the powers that be they let them have their money back. (12.10.01)

Sevilla's Nico Olivera will soon be up in court in Spain facing a possible eight year prison sentence. Olivera, together with Sevilla players Otero and Zalayeta, is accused of grievous bodily harm after the three Uruguayans were involved in a fight in a Sevilla discotheque in December 1999. The players claim that a group of youths were making racist remarks and insulting their wives, and that the fight developed outside of the club as they were leaving. One of the youths suffered a broken leg and a bruised cheek from kicks while lying on the ground. (04.10.01)
September 2001 Villarreal have just signed a couple of new wingers. But these are not the typical sort you see running down the touchline and crossing balls in; they have feathers, beaks and very, very sharp claws. Having sewn seeds on their new pitch at the Madrigal stadium, ground staff did not want the sparrows to eat all their good work. So they took a leaf out of Robin Hood's book and took on the services of a couple of small falcons to patrol the skies above the ground. Not quite as frightening as Martín Palermo in full flight, but just as effective. (20.09.01)

By all rights the final of the Spanish cup should take place next spring in Real Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu stadium. The date fixed for the match is 6th March 2002, the day Real Madrid celebrate 100 years since their inauguration.

However their management are currently debating whether to put their name forward to the Spanish federation or not, with several board members opposed to the idea. The problem is that maybe, just maybe, their worst enemy FC Barcelona could make it to the final, and nobody amongst the "Merengues" wants to see Barça president Joan Gaspart running around their stadium on that day holding aloft the cup.

Barça themselves had a similar problem two years ago, when the then president José Luis Nuñez finally agreed to let UEFA use the stadium on the Catalan side's centenary day for the Champions League final. Breaths of relief were well and truly sighed when Real Madrid were knocked out at the quarter final stage, and in the end Manchester United went on to beat Bayern Munich in a classic final. Will Florentino Pérez be as brave? (09.09.01)

Spain succeeded once again to scupper Gibraltar's chances of being accepted by UEFA. The 'Rock' have been trying for some time to register for European competitions, both at club and international level, but each time they have been opposed by their powerful neighbours.

With the status of the British dependency still under dispute, the Spanish government gave instructions to their football federation to withdraw from UEFA if their application were to be accepted, and under such a threat the European body decided to postpone any decision to a later date. With FIFA voting next month whether to limit new membership to countries recognised by the United Nations, it now looks like Gibraltar will have to wait at least until 2003 before their dreams are realised. (06.09.01)

There will be a minute's silence at Getafe and Villarreal in memory of the Madrid second division side's defender Sebastián Gómez, known as Sebas. The player was shot and killed by an off duty policeman in a yet to be clarified incident on a beach near his home town of Villarreal in the early hours of the morning a week ago. Sebas and the police officer were apparently involved in a brawl after insults were exchanged, and the policeman drew his gun and shot the player during the course of the argument. He later threw his weapon into the sea and gave himself up to the local authorities. The case comes to court in the next few days. (03.09.01)
August 2001

Sometimes the technical information at football clubs leaves a lot to be desired. That must certainly be what they think at Partizan Belgrade, who were looking for data on their opponents in the UEFA cup preliminary round, the Andorran champions Don Pernil Santa Coloma. Partizan's manager Ljubisa Tumbakovic searched high and low for a video of one of their games, and finally got his hands on a home made tape.

Interviewed afterwards however, Tumbakovic admitted that it was not a great help. First of all, he said, the players did not have names on the shirts, so we didn't know who was who. But worst of all, we didn't know what colour Don Pernil play in, so we didn't know which of the two sides were our opponents. Ah well, they still won the first leg 0-1. (21.08.01)

Betis's controversial president Manuel Ruiz de Lopera has certainly got it in for his veteran striker Angel Cuéllar. The player has three years left to run on his contract, but as there is no room for him in their current squad, he was made an offer to leave. Cuéllar turned it down as derisory, and the dirty tricks began.

First of all he was told when he turned up for training that he was suspended without pay for 15 days for deliberately dropping his performance over a four year period, the president insinuating that he was doing it to collect on an insurance policy.

When that didn't work he accused the ex Spanish international of leaving a young man bleeding after a fight in a bar three years ago, and refusing to help out with the fine when another player Juan Merino was found guilty for the attack. The truth is that Cuéllar was cleared of the incident which witnesses confirm he had no part in, and even so he did contribute to Merino's fine.

Cuéllar has had enough of the character assassination, and has instructed his lawyers to take legal action against Lopera. This is not the first time that "Don Manuel" has used underhand tactics to rid himself of problem players, as Jarni, Ayala, Solazabal and Alfonso (to name but a few) have found out to their cost. (11.08.01)

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